For this topic, I'm sorry to say, I cannot be objective.
For as much as I dislike organized religion of all kinds - I am, and will always be a Jew. I had relatives that were killed in the holocaust, and have personally experienced some anti-Semitism in my lifetime.
There are atrocities happening on both sides of this crisis. However, the one thing that you will never hear is that an Israeli strapped himself with explosives and walked into a market.
I agree with "Anonymous'" comment on my last posting:
If the terrorists in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc, lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If they do the same in Israel, there will be another holocaust.
(Ok, maybe not another holocaust, but it would not be good.)
I know I may catch hell from some of you for this posting, but remember it's just one person's opinion -- and an unobjective one at that.
I stand by my comment. However, I can change the wording from Holocost to Genocide.
Also, I believe the terrorists are incredible cowards because they don't wear uniforms and hide behind families and children. They are the reason for the civilian deaths.
"If the terrorists in Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, etc, lay down their weapons, there will be peace. If they do the same in Israel, there will be another holocaust".
That pretty well sums up my feelings. The Arabs have made
their intentions very clear.
I'm in the same camp. Today's news is a little grim, though.
Regarding the attack in Qana, the last post I read put the tally at 60 dead. Of those killed, 34 were children and 12 were women. Does this mean 14 "real" terrorists were killed? Or could some of the 14 been sick old men? Or should we assume they were all Hezzbolah? Get my drift?
Now Hamas has vowed to continue attacks on Israel in retaliation. These attacks will surely include suicide bombings and will kill unknown numbers of Israelis...and others. Iran and Syria have levelled threats as well. As the history of the region has shown us...this cycle will repeat itself ad nauseum, and may very well lay the ground-work for the ultimate holocost, namely nuclear obliteration and total annihilation. Is there a "right" side in all of this? Are you sure the "Arabs" have made their intentions clear? Are you speaking for all Arabs?
I, for one, am so completely sick of all the ignorant bullshit from both sides of the "Mid-East Conflict." All parties involved are guilty. Period. God help us all.
Wait minute, I take back the "God help us all" part. The fucker is obviously sleeping through this one.
Unfortunately, I can't say I disagree with you, Brian.
I'm still coming down on the other side of the debate Lizzy (hey I think it's the very first time we've actually totally disagreed). Anyway the deaths at Qana have made me lose the plot and I'm totally firing from the hip on this one. In fact its the madest I've ever, ever been as a blogger. I'm not sure if you guys got the full pictures stateside these were'nt just numbers or terrorists these were mostly children.
I'm not happy about it either, but Hizbollah routinely puts civilians in harm's way, including children. I'm sure Israeli intelligence had SOMETHING they knew. Perhaps they should have gone in and demanded evacuations ahead of time. Definitely not a good moment in this conflict.
New York Times quote:
"The Israeli Army said that it was puzzled that the strike occurred between midnight and 1 a.m., and hit next to the building, but that the building collapsed around 7 a.m. Brig. Gen. Amir Eshel said it was at least possible that the explosion was caused by munitions stored inside the building."
Thanks for the article I'll disagree with the officer,the bodies that came out were virtually intact no flash or burn wounds. The shots of the exterior
looked like most of the structure came down and in, not down and out as you would expect from an interior secondary blast.
I must admit I've never been so enraged in my life at mere news footage, one can only guess the depth feeling in the middle east
I'm sorry I'm just so fired up over the whole dam thing, I don't mean to be disrespectful - and no I'm not pulling a Mel Gibson on this one!!!
Don't worry, Damien. I'd never compare you to Mel...not in a million years.
The building was bombed. Every report, every film, and all the photos published make that pretty clear. The 'bewildered' officer's comments were pathetic and embarrassing. Fuck the NY Times on this one. Don't defend this. The only hope is in the willingness of everyone...Jew, Gentile, Arab, EVERYONE... to condemn this kind of idiotic aggression, and useless violence.
My .o2 worth:
The Israelis are definitely giving a "measured" response. If one stops to think how much worse they could be making it right now, given their military might, they are really not making it as horrific on Lebanon as they are capable of. By choosing not to annihilate the groups who are threatening them with things such as limited nuclear warfare or larger bombs/weapons than they are now using, they ARE holding back. I hate to think of what would happen if Hezbollah or Hamas or another terrorist group succeeded in doing any major damage against Israel, and by "major" I mean air strikes, heavier-duty missiles than what Israel is getting hit with now, etc. It would not be pretty.
What I can't stand about the whole situation is that religion seems to be at the heart of the problems, and lots of people are getting hurt or dying because of it. I have to think that if 1) the Islamic population flushed out its religious freaks and got them on a collective leash, if 2) the nations around Israel that are not friendly to it would do something about their troublemakers instead of aiding terrorism or simply looking the other way, and if 3) Israel could gradually ease its hard-line stance in response to the accomplishment of steps #1 and #2... Israel and its neighbors could coexist peacefully.
Even if Hezbollah continues to show as much strength as they currently are doing, they won't be any match for Israel. Hezbollah needs to return the Israeli soldiers, (if they haven't killed them already, perish the thought) and sit down to talk with the leaders of Israel, Syria and Lebanon. If they don't, I think Israel will gradually be pounding Lebanon harder and harder.
I have just about given up hope of the U.S. leading any kind of peace effort, because I don't think Bush wants peace... I really believe he would rather do what he can to accelerate "end times", and if that means looking the other way while Israel pounds away, that's what he will do. Maybe the Europeans are not too addled by religion to help the afflicted parties get something done. The sooner, the better, I say.
Israel needs to defend itself, but at what point does the offensive stop?
I was nodding my head the whole time while reading your comment. I agree completely.
Amen, and well put Snave. I want to recommend"The End Of Faith" by Sam Harris. It deals with religion, terror and the future of reason. I couldn't put it down...easily the most thought provoking and enlightening I've read in years.
Kick'n, I've calmed down ahhh
deeep blue ocean, deeeep blue ocean.
'Its great to have the old blogger fire back'
Thanks, Lizzy. One thing I might have added or made more clear, and that is that while I wish the leaders of Syria and Lebanon wouldn't just look the other way when outfits like Hezbollah are out killing and making trouble, I also wish Bush wouldn't look the other way while Israel pounds Lebanon. I think our country, given its might, ought to be using that might (or better yet, its influence) for positive pursuits, such as putting an end to violence. Again, I don't trust Bush to include that as an aim in his foreign policy approach.
Brdrake, thanks for the recommendation! One of the books I'm currently reading is by Michael Shermer, entitled "How We Believe: Science, Skepticism and the Search for God". It's thought-provoking stuff from the creator of Skeptic Magazine. Shermer doesn't come down on religion as hard as he might (he is giving a "measured response") and he asks good questions... the kind that would cause true believers to dismiss the book out of hand before even reading it! Heh! He has also written a book called "Why People Believe Weird Things", in which he debunks holocaust deniers, UFOs, and creationism among other things. His stuff is all very readable.
I will definitely look into the Harris book!
Damien, even if some of us disagree on who the aggressor is, who it to blame, etc., I think there is one thing on which we mostly agree: war sucks. I'm not sure who it was that said "There has never been a good war or a bad peace"... Einstein, maybe? Anyway, I just want it all to stop, regardless of how it got started, and I want people in that area of the world to live their lives peacefully. I'm not sure how likely that is to happen without the help and influence of the U.S. and Europe. It looks like if anything is going to be done to really help, the Europeans may be the best hope.
I'm afraid the only solution some people see in this situation is "totally eradicate the enemy". To "win" a "war on terror", does that necessarily mean "kill every last terrorist"? In the minds of Bush and his friends, it might mean just that. While they might try and pump America full of the ten commandments, they surely don't believe in the one that says "thou shalt not kill".
I'm sure there are also some loony-bin Islamic fundamentalists/jihadists on the other side, who would like to kill every last American and every last Israeli.
What can be done to change some of these attitudes, besides using shows of force? Can religion be purged from the situation somehow? (That means not just from the Islamic side, but also from Israel and the U.S.)
I guess I just like to think there are better ways for the two sides to figure things out than by beating each other to a pulp.
Yep, I agree. And, if there is to be any negotiations for peace, we need to take it out of the hands of Bush & Co.
We need someone without an agenda. Jimmy Carter keeps coming to mind.
We've got a beat on at the moment that George will suddenly turn up in Tel Aviv this weekend (or a 100-1 outside chance of arriving in Beruit). Just seemed to oversell the whole "I'm going to Crawford ya'll" thing.
Hey thanks for letting this post run for as long as it has Lizzy gal.
Oh..And by the way, don't bother Bush with any of this. He is on vacation for the next two weeks!
Looks like he needs some more time to dry out... will we eventually learn that this is what the vacations are really for? Or does he like to avoid work? It's true that he could just be going there to relax a bit, he does have a stressful job...
But like Nora Ephron wrote re. the results of Dumbya's physical, how could someone who is screwing things up so much have a resting heart beat of 46? I don't think he goes to Crawford to relax. And, it seems like bad things tend to happen when he goes there. Arrrrgh.
On Randi Rhodes show on Air America, they have talked at length about Cheney, Rumsfeld, (& mostly) Bush's mental conditions.
Several psychotherapists have said that Bush has borderline-personality disorder. Others have said that his facial features suggest he was born with fetal-alcohol syndrome.
Cheney's diagnosis is simple - sociopath.
I've been watching this crap since I was in the cradle, almost 50 years.
The partys involved are not going to solve the problems, and it's time the world quit counting on them to do so.
It's past time I think for outside control.
Snave makes so much sense. I laughed when Bush went on vacation. What's the difference where he is, anyway. Maybe shoveling hay and cowshit keeps his cocaine and alcohol sobriety in check.
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